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tv   [untitled]    May 4, 2011 8:30pm-9:00pm EDT

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their stories not often told messages often lost in translation in a world where the fight for democracy can sometimes lead to it's a radical. christine for cell r t o a ton of stories here and that is going to do it our show tonight from one of the stories we covered go to our t. dot com slash usa or you tube dot com slash our team america follow me on twitter at lord lester but for now that's going to do it for the news in. the show is that so much to know there's a huge music history of the time on the mark with the killing of osama bin laden what is change to us president barack obama says justice is being done in that the world is better and a safer place. to be official ulti allocation join the i
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pod touch from the top story. the lights on the. video on demand. an r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. world. bringing you the latest in science and technology from the are. we going to the future or cupboard. can. stand. alone welcome across the uk i'm hearing about the killing of osama bin laden what has changed u.s. president barack obama says justice has been done in the world is better and
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a safer place bin laden is no more so as the so-called war on terror been worth it . can. still be. crossed out the war on terror in the post bin laden era i'm joined by patricia dejan r o a professor of international security at new york university's department of politics in irvine we have mark a vine he's a professor of history at the university of california irvine he's also author of the book heavy metal islam rock resistance and the struggle for the soul of islam and a new buy we have dan editor in chief at pakistan. beast dot com pakistan's alternative policy institute and news service this is cross talk here you can jump in anytime you want here mark obama said the world is a better place it's a safer place and importantly he said justice has been done over the last ten years
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over the last ten years on the war on terror has justice been done. well i think as a new yorker a lifelong new yorker and so recently certainly. i'm certainly happy to see that bin laden is gone and that he's met what i think would be just then but i think the other arguments of the world safer i'm not sure that they're really true at this point because most people think he hasn't had any kind of operational command. and the franchises that have grown are in fact more dangerous than al qaeda central is at the moment and you know his death itself is probably going to spawn a lot of violence and retribution so i think that argument is not really true and i think if the policies don't change very quickly on the part of the obama administration in long term this is really going to be a footnote however pleasant might be for americans in a war that should have ended a long time ago interesting on patricia and mark was getting at exactly where i
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want to go in this program by the way the quote unquote war on terror is fought is it going to be any different now because it would seem that obama may have some options here if you really want to get out of afghanistan and he can say well you know bin laden is gone ok i can start winding this thing down i mean whatever spin he wants to to get out of a hopeless war you think something like i could have been and how do i want to stay with the theme of the war on terror how was it going to be fought after the death of bin laden. well i think he is definitely going to use this as a direct a direct. and true way to basically be able being able to work on the withdraw from afghanistan and more appropriately iraq as well however i think you know this administration is it has not been much different than the last one is for us as far as foreign policy is concerned and you know this idea that we want to keep bases in places without the support of the governments and without really speaking to the
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governments the nationalist government and seeing how that is going to align interests and help the region and help those governments is is just i think the wrong policy the wrong way to go with policy. at the at this time anyway you know dan you know i want to talk a little bit about the pakistan angle because there's more questions than answers at this point here but i mean when you look at pakistan would you say that the bush obama war on terror as it can be called a success by any any to mention whatsoever. i think you just have to look at the situation in pakistan today and compared to what it was before the before the occupation of afghanistan began and now today we have insurgencies in different forms as in pakistan we have clearly terror attacks in which. you know hundreds of thousands of thousands of civilians have. some numbers
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have put up to thirty thousand civilians have died in the last ten years in practice and just from the terror attacks so i don't see this being any in any way a success even though some would be large and scaling would probably generate more and more such attacks and if you look at the kind of success that obama is saying that this could be for afghanistan and that doesn't make any sense either because somebody laden has been a man on the run he's got no operational capabilities not been involved in in battle he's not been involved in any way in the in the liberation war in afghanistan and even i was reading the papers today in pakistan there is this statement by one of the spokesman of the gone taliban saying that they were actually surprised that osama bin laden was actually alive up to now so that gives you an idea of what they see the relevance of osama bin laden in the actual war in afghanistan and that's that's where that's what will define the situation in
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pakistan in the future and the sooner the u.s. can pull out of afghanistan pakistan can solve begin begin to pick up the pieces and then we return to some sort of normalcy you know mark if i can go to you the fact that he was in pakistan killed there there is reports coming out today that bin laden could have been living there for six years and that is pretty remarkable on one of america's close this hours on a war on terror after billions and billions of dollars of aid and he's killed there apparently without the knowledge of the pakistani authorities which is just impossible to fathom that ok i mean what is going on here. well for me what it really calls into question is our presence in afghanistan for a decade and what was that for if theoretically the only right or the only justification we had to be an act in a stand was to hunt down and capture or kill the people directly responsible for the september eleventh attacks i mean that's really the only legal and moral
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justification the united states would have had to be there instead we've engaged in you know once we went in there you know to paraphrase colin powell we broke it and so we owned it and we still own it and it's a pretty ugly thing that we own right now and the situation is worse in afghanistan as well as in pakistan so now that we've killed him and really there's only one or two outstanding you know senior al qaeda people who are directly responsible for nine eleven what do we do that's really the question if we if we just pull out precipitous early but we don't change our other policies of supporting you know corrupt and dictatorial regimes around the region then we're just going to leave a vacuum that the same kind of forces who are very angry at western policies are going to fill and we could be back in the same situation again in a year or two if we if we if we pull out as patricia suggested but do it in a way that also says were cleaning the board and we're no longer going to be engaging in the policies that have lead to the rise of these kinds of terrorist
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organizations then i think there's a chance that you know even if we have to leave afghans and pakistanis to sort out things for themselves in a very ugly and violent way it's not going to lead it's not going to we are not going to be part of the problem and we're not going to be part of the blame that is going to lead to you know. more and more terrorism against western or specifically u.s. interests i'm going to go down this democracy would a little bit later in the program but patricia i'd like to ask you i mean you know from the position of the united states you know people in the obama administration say look the war on terror is a success we finally got the guy ok took a long time it'll be hard. to explain this thing with pakistan but you know you know you will finesse it here i mean what i'm getting at listening to what mark said i mean could be the wrong lessons to be learned from the death of bin laden because people will say look you know it took a long time we knew would be hard a long war we were told and it's a long war because i'm kind of hoping they got to going on mark side here so you
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can learn from these mistakes and stop these kind of these kinds of interventions like this to just create terrorism. well following up on that i mean i think this definitely could be used in a political sense and it probably will be used in a political sense because by both republicans and democrats i'm sure the republicans will find some way to make this time in currently by obama but it was overall a good thing and the obama administration again will use it in a political sense but i think we also have to look at this larger issue and i think mark alluded to when he was just speaking on that point is that you know america is over all our foreign policy is so reactionary it's very coarse it's not comprehensive at all and i think it's time that this country sits back and decides how it wants to engage with the rest of the world obama started out with a great policy of engagement regional engagement more a more reasonable engagement with the iranians with the arabs in the region and the
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middle east peace process and this whole focus on getting the war in afghanistan under control and organized because it's been chaotic from the get go but that all of that fell apart and we went back to this whole idea that getting one person whether it be cut off it whether he was saying and now it's osama bin laden back to us all and this whole idea is we're missing a greater picture of what's happening in the world and what's happening throughout this reason in the democratic sense which you said you want to get to as well dan you know you the last time you were on the program we talked about pakistan and i asked you is the united states and pakistan on the same page so i'm going to ask you that question again on this program here because why does going on here i mean this is just amazing that you know i mean i came across some analysis to it least one pakistani official said privately big well it's better to keep an eye on him because if we killed him or given him up it would have caused more violence i mean
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what kind of rationale is there to be hiding this person while taking money in one hand and lying to your most important strategic ally of the united states i know the sentiment in pakistan is very anti-american. there is a difference i mean the situation the sentiment in pakistan is anti-american but it's at the same time the people of pakistan have lived rejected the the ideology that is attributed to osama bin laden a long time ago we have terrorists in the darkness and who are working on the same ideology attacking pakistani state and if you look at the statements that income from the usama bin laden camp in the past and from. where they have openly called to attack the pakistani state and the pakistani army so it doesn't make any sense for me to even consider the possibility that a pakistani state would be protecting a man who promotes attacking the pakistani state so you know it just it's sounds really ridiculous appearance but again if i help you if i can stay with you i mean how do you how is it that he was there a living in
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a compound i don't know how palatial it was i mean it looks like it was some reports it was a little past a million dollars and is very well protected i mean somebody knew he was there. see the thing is there's been various reports that have come in over the past few years about his location so it's obvious that he has been moving he has been on the run and if we are talking about the possibility of the pakistanis protecting him surely they would have picked a place which would make it give them some measure of deniability exist in case he was picked up and you know to avoid the kind of questions that are being asked now so i think he has he had been moving we i remember the in the earlier days when i think proposing a sheriff i repeatedly said that if there is actionable intelligence on where osama bin laden has shared with us and we will go after him and yesterday watching the press conference at the white house yesterday the only real actionable intelligence
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that has come in since tora bora was was the day before yesterday when they actually came in and and took them an hour and i'm there just to hear what he has got him going to short range going to a short break after that break we'll continue our discussion on the so-called war on terror stay with our.
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plug the cutest story. going to go for. the soon. welcome after all star i'm funeral about to remind you we're talking about the death of the world's terrorist number one. the subtler good story of the soon. ok mark i'd like to go to you you know we've been here across talk of obviously been watching the events unfolding the last six months and north africa starting with the media all the way to what is happening pakistan and in looking back at the ten years of the so-called war on terrorism in the last six months when you've been just a whole lot more a lot cheaper a lot more morally correct just to prove to stop protecting dictators and promote
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democracy because to date be the to be and be the spring in the in the in the arab world north africa is not fundamentally anti-american i mean it seems to me just going a lot cheaper a lot more moral just to go against the real bad guys and then al qaeda would have just disappeared. well you said two things which i think you're missing a third of probably would have been certainly cheaper from the standpoint of american taxpayers it would have been certainly more moral but would have been would have been more profitable and that's the problem this is this larger system that the u.s. has been so important in creating and sustaining in the last half century of supporting you know these ruthless autocracies dictatorships and monarchies because they support our interests this ultimately is about money it's about oil it's about a gigantic weapons and arms and petroleum complex you know eisenhower first talked about it in the fifty's but it's great it's grown enormously since then and really
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this is what obama's been up against i think when patricia talked about how he started off with a great speech in cairo and monica re found u.s. policy but it's obvious he came very quickly against an incredible set of entrenched economic political and military interests that he's had to back off against and so instead of really supporting the arab spring and really getting ahead of the curve and getting arab public opinion and muslim public opinion on his side he really has been playing behind the ball i saw that from being in egypt or in during the uprising and i think it's very costly to us foreign policy and that's why you know the capture or death of bin laden isn't going to actually affect things that much if we don't actually stop the larger system that we've been supporting so wholeheartedly all these years and still are if we look at the rain if we look at our support for saudi arabia for look at our refusal to really condemn syria patricia but i'm not i'm i refused to be so pessimistic i agree one hundred percent with mark but nonetheless here but if the message is out there is
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that the. jihad is it's it's if we if we just support more democracy we don't have to worry about all of these extremist groups because it's people on the ground are telling us what they want and we've seen it over and over again they're getting a lot of resistance in some countries and the united states as it has not done the moral thing in. boring them but i mean eat what it is these people on the ground continue to do it eventually it will coincide with the policies of other countries the united states cannot continue to do say you can't have democracy when there's boil boiling process continues and continues to the genie is out of the bottle it certainly is out of the bottle and we are way behind it i mean if you look at turkey and iran there ahead of us right now you know this in ministration. remark alluded to it it was three or four weeks into egypt where they are you know mubarak was getting on the plane in the ministry so it was putting together
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a task force to look at what they wanted to do in egypt he you know running around the world in order to keep the military in business after one man is just it's absurd and i mean there are two issues here that are that are inhibiting us moving forward from foreign policy in the foreign policy manner in the first one is that we're really not seeing a defined policy out of the white house or not seen leadership coming out of the white house that's the first thing the second thing we're seeing is this this absolute just baker ring and and childish behavior in congress that they you know they're running around the world i guess by mere went around afghanistan just recently but he came back with nothing except saying oh well general petraeus said things are going well there you know these guys have got to roll their sleeves up and find out what's happening in the world find out how to get america on course and stop pandering to
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a lot of these interest groups that are pushing these this type of behavior i mean we're just behind the curve and we may still be america's superpower and because strongest military in the world but we're certainly not using any of our resources the facts are very unknown fact or hurting our military and our foreign policy establishment quite quite and you know infinitely if you ask me right now you know dan how's this going to affect. what i admire i'm going to jump in go ahead. mark you know only the only problem is of course is that the people that are our congressmen and women are pandering to are the ones who are funding their re-election so it really comes down to that as long as they're being supported and funded by these very forces that profit from this empire of bases and global war on terror how could they ever go against them ok dan if you can depending on how things pan out over the next few days here is the relationship between the united states and some elements within the pakistani military and security forces it is
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going to change or is it something fundamental happen here. i think it's in the interests of both parties all the parties involved actually to keep the relationship going and take this this is this what's happened in the couple of days ago is actually works out for the best of everyone was on the bin laden had been a liability for for the for al qaeda itself actually i mean if you look at it he had been on the run and then he had been a liability for pakistan because the reports coming in his sightings in a lot of different places so now that this this is buried. actually buried at sea but this issue is actually done and dusted americans should obama should be used this as an opportunity to to they've been looking for a safe exit in afghanistan for the last couple of years they've been looking for an opportunity and things have been getting worse and you know you won't get an opportunity like this this is
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a godsend for him so i think he should really start looking to use this opportunity to pick up the losses and get out basically before before it gets any worse mark and we were at the start of the spring in afghanistan the taliban have declared the new operation bother so you know the casualties will rise up and there will be pressure at home on obama to bring bring the forces on not that osama bin laden is that mark what do you think about that you think obama is going to do quite a world the right thing here that gives him a way to get out of afghanistan. because i mean there's no there's no hope of winning that war there i mean he's coming up for reelection so is this really the card he's going to play and say look you know i mean mission accomplished really mission accomplished this time and we're going to start the process of withdrawal because everything that is logical everything else said on this program here tells me that's not going to happen because that's not not the logic of american foreign policy. well i mean i think that would be the easy thing and certainly he would
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love to wind down afghanistan and i would i certainly hope that most if not all u.s. troops will leave as soon as possible but again if you do that without creating some conditions both in terms of a fundamental change in our from policy so people aren't so angry at us which helps fuel the recruiting and talk and you don't you haven't spent any time in the past ten years creating conditions on the ground for something approaching a participatory democracy what is the vacuum that you're going to leave behind and are you going to wind up having afghanistan become again a haven for groups that will attack the u.s. or are western interests so i think he might do that and hope and pray that the next major attack doesn't come from afghanistan and doesn't come on his watch but you know things have a way of repeating themselves you know the water flows the same way down through the ocean if you don't change its course and unfortunately i think that's what would happen if pulling out isn't part of
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a larger strategic rethink and reshift in u.s. strategic and foreign policy where you are you seem to be green there patricia do you want to add on to that. i wholeheartedly agree i think it's been a it's but bottom line it's been a difficult intervention in afghanistan there are so many parties there there are so many players there that i can't. it's just been extremely poorly managed and. you know i was against the surge and hoping that would change the management would change at that time but it didn't at all and but i do think i think the drawdown is happening the chains announce with general petraeus was indicative of that this particular you know killing of osama bin laden that's also going to be used towards that nato has agreed to pull out by twenty third two thousand and twelve so these are all issues showing us are these are all facts show us that the drawdown is coming and we're on our way i do think though having been
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a lot of sun several times over and over again for the past five years that we need to be able responsible in how we do this and we need to get the players to the table and they need to decide how better to manage their own country and their own place because i do think if we just you know again pack up and walk out like we did during after the the soviet invasion we are going to have a lot of similar problems including influence there from not just the soviet union as it was in the past but his back a stance as he has done in all of the surrounding countries including china and it's it's going to be a very very difficult call reads and some man is acting you know at that point as well you know again it is in our here again i mean i agree with our other guest of the on a lot of consensus on the program here today but he's really not she has done everything wrong for the last ten years in afghanistan he's really hoping your you know expectation that that somehow we can get it right i mean what is the right way to
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get out of afghanistan where pakistan can keep its security interest it's a legitimate sovereign country that it is a victim of terrorism quite often. i think we were well to come to the first point of this question first question is is there any hope i have my doubts obviously looking at the past history of the region and coming to the second point whether. what needs to be done is to take into account the sensibilities and then the and illegitimate concerns of the immediate neighborhood of ghana son such as pakistan especially because we have been at the receiving end over the past many past decade and we've suffered. losses not just economically but in terms of lives as well as the sons interests need to be taken on board and they need to work together to come to a strategy and work towards. you know an exit for for america that leaves the
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reason stable and and you know addresses the concerns of understands immediate neighbors what do you think about that mark i'll give you the last word but oh ok i'll play critic i had you want to say i got really fundamentally ok mark you get the last word go ahead. just very quickly and it may be that my other two colleagues can very quickly comment on this i think clinton or or even obama need to meet with senior publicly and meet with senior taliban leaders on both sides of the border to really declare in essence a truce and an obama needs to challenge them now to actually in the best interests of their people and their religion and their culture is by by supporting a real peace and development plan for for afghanistan and of course for pakistan as well because without one the other doesn't happen all right folks we've all run out of time this was a conversation ten years in the make in the making many thanks and i guess of
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a number of my new york and in dubai in thanks to our viewers for watching us here harvey see you next time remember across the. street. wealthy british science. sometimes. markets. why no one should really be happening to the global economy with much stronger run over.


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